When considering the fate of PRR 4876 and its potential home at the B&O museum (BORM), it is important to remember that collection strategies can change and that the BORM has changed theirs many times in recent decades.

I contend that it is difficult to do justice to the 1880-1980 history of the B&O without discussing how it responded to its main competitor - the PRR. Both railroads developed different approaches to developing traffic in the regions they served, in implementing new technology, and labor relations. The 4876 provides a powerful contrast to explaining the how both railroads developed differently in the Washington-New York corridor.

I have in my possession an extremely through document, prepared approximately 10 years ago, that presents a strategy for developing the BORM's freight car collection with a focus on presenting the B&O's developments in perspective with that of the PRR and the industry at large. The BORM management changed, the plan was shelved, and the equipment acquired from its recommendations (all of it important, some donated in partially restored condition) was scrapped this past summer.

If this is any guide, I think that the fate of the 4876 will depend on the vacillations of the BORM management that presently holds office rather than the historic importance of the 4876 and its ability to contribute meaningfully to interpretation at the BORM.

To underscore another comment made in this tread – what has been missing from the BORM (and many other museums managed by professional curators) is a realization of the importance of indoor storage. I fear that the side-sills of most of their passenger cars are in poor condition and I suspect that many are also experiencing corrosion around their letter boards and roofs. Left unchecked, this could compel some difficult decisions in what is one of the finest passenger car collections in the US.

Tom Cornillie

Gasp. Another story that hurts.

One point about another generation being the one
to sort this all out: there will be fewer vollies to
man the needle guns, stump up the cash for
inside storage and EVEN TO CARE AT ALL.

This is comment currently heard in the UK.
It is true. Prepare for some painful losses.
I drive by the spur where that NYC electric
is often and I cannot face going in there to
see how bad it has gotten. I suppose it
was the time I went and found the big
old headlight smashed with rocks that
did it for me.

Tom: I guess it is difficult to comment without the input of the curatorial staff and trustees of the BORM, but I think the bottom line in this whole disucussion remains as such: If the B&O RM was approached by another credible museum organization for the acquisition of the GG1, would they give her up or retain her as a desired part of the collection?

Lastly, looking at the overall length of this thread, it is amazing how far we have come from celebrating the OC's purchase of a classic NKP Berkshire, down to whether a classic GG1 should be retained or scrapped! Perhaps we are chasing our own tails in this? Maybe the whole thing should be referred to a new thread that details how extinction is forever. How important was the "next to last" passenger pigeon? How important is K4s #1361, when #3750 exists as well? How important are any of the Big Boys, as long as another exists somewhere else?

I would think that they would be amicable to entertaining proposals for the 4876. The current adminstration has released several pieces that were not accessioned. They have also made some very suprising moves - such leasing to a tourist line a very intact B&O RDC-1 that was previously earmarked for conservation and limited operation.

However, this adminstration also ignored my requests and those of other museums for information about the freight cars that were scrapped this past summer.

Tom Cornillie

I think that it is unfair to say that the importance of indoor storage is not realized when C&O 1604, B&O 5300, and C&O 490 were recently moved into the carshop soon to be joined by B&O 4500. I'm not sure if everyone realizes how expensive and time consuming it is to create indoor storage for pieces as large as the ones being discussed.

All that I was trying to point out is that with the Challenges facing the core of the museum's priceless 19th century collection, priorities have shifted and I think rightfully so. No one argues that in an ideal world everything would be inside a building, or within the fenced compound, truth is that this is not possible in the short term. I remember the E8 Sandy refers to and it is a sad story, but until someone comes along and gives the museum a donation large enough to add more indoor storage (think at least 5 or 6 zeroes) tough choices will have to be made and every piece will have to wait its turn. Until then some of us will continue to give freely of all the free time we have to give to try to preserve what we can, all the while enduring the insults of those who don't think we are doing enough.

Can we move discussion back to NKP 763? Or start a new thread about the GG-1?

Thanks.

Just for the record, a serious correction:

The B&O RR Museum did NOT scrap the cars acquired for a large-scope examination of the freight car.

The cars that were scrapped were relatively modern covered hoppers donated by the corporate successors of two local companies, Domino Sugar and Davison Chemical. They were donated as local-industry railroad cars, and as such had a place in the collection. The B&O Museum kept the best one of the Domino cars, shipped one to the Western Md. Scenic a while back, and traded the rest of them plus the Davison cars (heavily-vandalized pressure-discharge cars that had been converted to in-plant storage) to a broker in exchange for services and other things (which I believe included the ex-Blue Mt. and Reading locomotive now hauling the excursion trains--it was the same broker, but I don't know which deal was which). That broker spent a couple years trying to find buyers for the cars, but they were too modern for a museum and too old for work. And CSX needed the track back.

There were, as I recall, a couple ex-B&O/Chessie cars also scrapped, I think three or four; they were the worst basket cases in the line-up and had duplicates about.

But the vast majority of the freight cars that Chessie/CSX shipped in over the years are still there. The problem is that even I, as a diehard preservationist, have trouble telling someone to take the trouble to get one of these cars. Every time we've tried, some ugly facet of regulatory or financial life rears its ugly head. I have a heck of a lot of trouble trying to justify to a museum spending probably $25,000+ to save a box car and relocate it, plus restoration costs. But if Jerry Jacobson or Scott Kwati.... Scott of the PRR freight cars........ wants to clone himself with a B&O gene, don't let me stop him........

I disagree. The thread below discusses the equipment scrapped that was acquired for the freight car collection.

http://rypn.sunserver.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=20840



The Carshop space, where these locomotives now sit, was always used for equipment storage and maintenance. The construction of the new maintenance/restoration building freed some space while other equipment was sent back outdoors.

Indoor space is expensive. If anybody is further interested in building costs - try the Parametric Cost Estimating Model For Buildings http://www.aacei.org/technical/BuildingModel.shtml Other museums and non-profit organizations regularly undertake and complete larger projects. It takes initative to realize the need and create a plan - which I have not seen from the museum. (Indeed, if they had a plan, they would be foolish to keep it secret - as they would probably want our money to help fund it)

The BORM is perhaps the in the best position, in terms of stature and professional staffing, of any museum in the country to mount the capital campaign necessary to bring such an effort to fruition. I find their lack of progress in this area disappointing.

Tom Cornillie

Speaking of the freight car line up at Mt Clare, can any one describe the purpose of this car?

http://www.ladyandtramp.com/images/Image%20Library/20061221/CIMG1256.JPG

I sort of feel sorry for posting the image of the G, it doesn't do justice to the impression the new shop facility provides, let alone the movement of some of the large steam pieces (C&O pieces no less) into the car barn. Although I have to scratch my head as to the removal of pieces from under the large, now mostly empty, roof structure at the west end of the roundhouse yard.

Thanks,

Bob Bunge

The B&O modified a 50-ton offset side hopper to serve as an icicle breaker for use on its line north from Pittsburgh, PA to Buffalo, NY. I do not know the specific details of how this car was used or what its predicessor/successor was. This car was one of a handful of steam era hoppers surviving anywhere.

Tom Cornillie

This thread has been hijacked...

I disagree. The original post used NKP 763 to posit wheither it is better for a musuem to continue to possess an item, or to pass it to a private individual who may be able to give it a better home. The discussion about the 4876, vasilating museum policies, are in line with this.

The discussions about Jerry Jacobsen's future plans, Plandampfs, the value of steam as a tourist attraction - all came from successive posters. Alas, this is the nature of the distributive journalism as practiced on this board. Messy as it may be (reflective of the disorganized nature of this field?) it is certainly more popular than our editorial content (at least in terms of submitted material).

Tom Cornillie

In regards to the VMT collection policy...I have no knowledge. But, as a preservationist it would occur to me that the 763 was most likely aquired simply because it was available... It is the Virgina Museum of Transportation, did the NKP ever run in virgina? Did the NKP berks ever operate in VA? The answers to these questions make it a wise decision to part with the locomotive so that resources can then be put to use to care for more vital pieces of history(more vital to VA history that is). While the OC will no doubt take good care of this artifact it could be a bad move for the VMT to have parted with it if they ever wish to seek accreditation. There is a minimum standard museums must follow for such things and they really shot themselves in the foot unless they offered this locomotive to not for profit organizations capable of caring for the old gal first.

To clarify...I think the deal is spectacular and I to attend the church of Lima and make it a point to wipe all the baldwin off my a@s.
Long live JJJ!

thanks for sharing

Wes, I think the thread shifted after everybody posted their theories about the future of 763. Doesn't leave anything much to be said until JJ chooses to come forward with whatever his plans might actually be. Anybody elses opinions pretty much are immaterial, anyhow.

dave