Obviously, your mileage may vary and objects in mirror are closer than they appear, but I think there was an article or thread on this board not too long ago about the roundhouse construction at RMPa which included costs per bay or something like it - perhaps Scott Cessna could chime in with real numbers here? The genius of their approach was in a single bay, modular design, so they could add on bays in the future at a low, predictable, economy of scale cost. The structure of the poles holds up the roof - the walls then just have to hold themselves up.

Again, take the concept and reapply it to your specific site - then figure out how you want to dress it up, and with what material. A simple block curtain wall will cost less than a corbelled and arch windowed archetectural gem, since custom skilled work and specialty brick may be involved. Corrugated metal or board and batten will cost less.

Starting with an existing series of pits, foundations, etc and simply reinstalling the modular frame above is certainly cheaper than having to work from bare ground. Recycle.

If Scott will share the specifics, you could take his concept to your local industrial modular building contractor and see what it would cost in your area.

So, what do i consider low cost? Anything that favorably compares with the cost of substantially rehabilitating an obsolete and very troubled historic structure, especially if there are code issues involved, or hazardous materials remediation OR with the cost of building a custom designed structure to do the same job.

dave

Ross, when you feel comfortable with the the situation, will please let us know if placement might include operations in the region?
Whimsically, I'd love to see the Greenbriar and a Kanawha operating out of a restored shop region like this. Lots of room, too. Such a place could become a private enterprise focal point for historic motive power and rolling stock.

A minor clarification, Dave:

RMPA is the Railroad Museum of Pennsylvania, in Strasburg. What you are mentioning with the roundhouse is the Altoona Railroaders Memorial Museum. Both museums are getting facelifts currently, so I can understand the confusion.

Thanks Tim, certainly my confusion. At least I got Scott's name right!

Apologies for extending the confusion to the list. Confusion is easy these days - working with paints and solvents of late.

Which reminds me - several years ago, PA had a cooperative marketiong program called something like "Railroad Heritage Trail". Is it still going on? If not, what didn't work about it?

dave

Les

I'm pretty sure that there are no water columns left around the shops intact, but there is another STEAM owner in the general area who has two water columns available that are complete, one fully intact on display the other is in kit form in storage. I could see these columns being used in Clifton Forge if this project ever came around. In fact It's not out of the realm of possibility that if as they say "You build it and they will come" This other STEAM owner in the area that has his two Steam Loco's (Canadian Loco's) in storage and his passenger equipment nearby might move there as well given limited opportunity to operate and very limited storage space for his equipment where he's currently located. So you could say that three operable Loco's could be there in rather quick order if the players worked it right...As well I know of a couple of groups that are in the region that would adjust there project goals and intentions in the rail preservation community to help see this project come to light.

Now Now please excuse my ramblings above but I'm just offering some food for thought while we are kicking around what could be scenarios!

While watering columns themselves may be gone, the underground piping is likely still in place.

How many railroad shops have successfully been adapted to museum/display usage ?

Dave[/b][/i]

Scranton, Pine Bluff, Portola, Spencer, Savannah come to mind.

Here is the down and dirty on our roundhouse project in Altoona. It was determined that our budget was not suitable enough at the time we had to make the design decisions to accommodate an entirely brick structure nor a brick wainscoting. As a result, the building will be a metal roof with metal siding colored to compliment the surrounding structures.

We had a number of people who previewed the drawing comment that the windows were much too small to appear “historically correct”. Two things about this:

1) The type of glazing that can be used today is governed by the building code and is VERY expensive per square foot.
2) The thought that less lighting can be installed by installing glazing is also no longer true as lighting is also a function of the building code based on square footage and type of occupancy.

So – our building is designed to function as a roundhouse but certainly not “recreate” what once was on the property. The building will be a combination of exhibitry and a working shop with the emphasis on the “working”.

The building was designed as a prefab building that could have modular bays added to it as the project is funded. The building is now projected to go to bid in February and will consist of 7 bays. Four will be 125 ft long and 3 will be 90 ft long due to site considerations. All will have roll-up doors on the front facing the table and 2 bays will have rear doors to allow pass through traffic connecting us to both the railcar shop of our neighbor – Altoona Pipe and Steel as well as maintaining our connection to the Norofolk Southern mainline.

One bay will have a mezzanine over 1/3 of the bay. One bay will have a 100ft pit under the track and one bay will have a 100ft pit along one side of its track. The building will contain a machine shop as well.

The initial bay constructed over 2 years ago cost approximately $400,000 and included over 1000 ft of trackwork. The estimate from our architectural firm for the remainder of the building is approximately $3.1 million including contingencies. This includes site work, foundations, mechanicals and a completely enclosed building. They were very close (a little high) in their estimate of our turntable pit contract so I am confident in their figure. The heat is gas fired radiant heat hung overhead. As mentioned before, the lighting, by code, will be high bay T5 flourescent.

I realize the turntable in Clifton is still in place, but I would also offer that our 105’ turntable project, including the purchase of the table, rehab of the table (done in-house over nearly a year), installation, new pit construction, and radiant track construction totaled nearly $923,000. Due to soils in our area, our pit ringwall had to placed on over 50 caissons drilled 12-14’ down to bedrock.

This brings the total to just over $4 million dollars without formal exhibit fabrication for the building.

Hope this information provides some insight for those undertaking or considering undertaking the same type project. All this work, due to be public money, had to be done at state prevailing wage rates. Davis Bacon did not apply to this transportation enhancement funding due to the work not being done in the highway right-of-way. Thank goodness for small favors.

http://www.railroadcity.com/gallery/index.php?cat=49

Thanks to Mr. Cessna for an excellent recap of his efforts at Altoona and congats to everyone at the RRMMA for the progress they're making.
To answer a number of the above posts, from my recent "walk around" of the still extant shop buildings in Clifton Forge I would hazard a guess that the cost of rehabbing them so they could be reoccuppied would FAR exceed any income they could produce in the rental market or value they would have where located in the resale market. Assumming I'm correct then the only way they'll get saved is for someone to be able to make a successful case that thier historic value justifies the ENORMOUS investment of public monies needed to rebuild them. Trust me when I tell you that the pictures don't do justice to how far gone they are.
I'm not at all qualified to hazard a guess at how much it would take to return them to usefull life but it would be in the tens of millions I think. Just look at what Mr.Cessna shared above as the costs associated with creating new a structure not 1/20th. the size of the CF complex and his figures are for a new structure without all the issues involved in a rebuiding!
The 115 ft. turtable is in great shape and operable and should be saved for possible future use.
I was very impressed with the COHS's plans for the future and with the professional manner in which they conduct thier business and believe they have an excellent chance of seeing thier visions become reality.
I'm sure they will keep the community posted on thier progress.
Ross Rowland

Ours was not a shop building but the Railroaders Memorial Museum in Altoona was indeed a railroad facility built in 1882 and rehabed in 1998 at a cost of over $5 million.

I believe the museum in St. Thomas, Ontario is in a former railroad shop building. But perhaps I am wrong on that.

Les

Oh how I can relate Ross. This is one of the reasons I have learned to not discuss anything with anybody when I'm in the process of negotiating, except on a need to know basis and even then I am getting pretty picky. Some folks just can't help but be the loudpseaker for things they know nothing about. I'm, not knocking Mr. Blay, but his source.

It's amazing how things can get blown out of proportion so quickly.


Bill Foster
President
Haley Tower Historical & Technical Society
www.haleytower.org