Gee I'm building a 40' x 80' pole building for under $10,000. Anyone want to come to Youngstown and see how things are done truly on the cheap?

What the NJ bunch needs is a dictator. Committees destroy everything they touch. A strong leader with a faithful follwoing will accomplish so much more than a committee of wishy washy partially motivated members.

Oh, but the URHS has been run almost from the beginning by a "dictator". Most of the delegates from the member groups tend to yield to this person's desires. If you read between the lines on several articles about the Hickory Creek this is very obvious.

On the broader topic of committees vs. dictators - I think both bring about very poor groups. We all remember the old story that a horse designed by a committee is a camel. Dictators tend to make the good people leave a group, leaving those with low self-esteem or other personality problems. The worst part about dictators is that when they eventually are pushed out (or die) the remaining people are so weak that the organization will fall apart.

To me the ideal organization is one with elections, but one that has four or five really strong people who each have strengths and work well together and have the respect of the membership. Two groups like this are TVRM and Fort Wayne RHS.

Being an active member of the Railroad community for over 16 years in restoration of equipment here in New Jersey, I have to sadly agree with the comments of Msrs, Steamtown Observer, Dave (His real name) and C&O (Ross) 614.

Mr Cornillie: You may have the best intentions in your opinions with regard to our situation here, but even two years after your initial posting, nothing has been done. And nothing will be.

You put forth the opinion that this thread is about bringing people together to bring forth workable ideas through collaboration and constructive criticism. We can see through these responses that the criticism is deifintely there, but nothing collaborative or constructive.

You asked for alternatives. Pole Barns are mentioned. I mentioned a long time ago that pole barns are not conducive to modern New Jersey Building codes. They may be in Youngstown, Ohio, but not here.

You mention funding. I think that the aforementioned posters responded accurately as to why this will not occur.

Therefore this is really no point in discussing this any further, as the situation will not change.

I, (and I'm sure the other posters) could go on and on about how this situation came to be, and how it is destined to remain as it is.

I think it's time to move on.

R.O.

Yes, Yes, restoration efforts in “Jersey” are difficult, maybe some day,,, maybe.

On a positive note, pole barns can be conducive in NJ. Two thing that NJ require as opposed to other states is sealed plans which cost extra $350.00 and the addition of hurricane clips. The usual set backs have to be observed.

My 30’x 40’ started at $9400.00, with the extras I added it cost $12,700. The company I used could build a barn 60’ across with unlimited length. 2 framers one day and 4 the next, and it was done!

Fellow Jersians, keep the faith, someday.

Scott
www.prrllc.com

I was just considering the general hopelessness of the NJ situation when..........

This morning I was reading in the newspaper that locally in my area they are planning on spending millions of dollars to develop a prime piece of waterfront property into housing for welfare recipients. One of the best ways to get the money to flow for a project in the Northeast is to tie it in with social programs. Just come up with a new way to spend money on people who will never pay any taxes or a cent of rent and the politicians climb all over each other to get on board. So maybe you find a creative way to use this equipment in this wonderful new world of publicly funded charity programs. Perhaps neighborhood graffiti boards for local "artists" to practice on? Aren't the cars becoming that already, why not just make it official? We already are having some "intellectuals" nowadays telling us that this is an art form of a new culture. At least it would keep some paint on the equipment (lots of paint).

MX (obviously not my real name)

Most whom have responded are not from NJ and may not be up on the day to day problems facing NJ.

Currently there is a $2 billion shortfall in the annual budget.

The Transportation Trust Fund (where the matching money comes from for ISTEA, TEA-21, etc. grants) has been totally spent. The annual revenue generated to go into the fund is ONLY paying off the interest on the existing loans. So no new large projects can be funded

About 10 years ago the state decided it would stop paying their portion into the public employee retirement fund, so the projected shortfall in the pension fund alone is $21 billion dollars.

The State sales tax was raised 1% last year to offset property taxes which are among the highest in the nation.

Buildable vacant property in Northern NJ near population centers goes from anywhere between $300,000 to $1 million per acre. Near the DL&W Ferryboat the 'Binghamton" in Edgewater, NJ in 1993 contaminated, industrial land was in excess of $1.1 million per acre. Its probably near $2-3 million now.

My personal example, I bought a house 8 years ago for $132,000 and paid about $3,000 per year in property taxes. Now without any work done to the house it is worth $340,000 and I pay over $5,300 per year in taxes. Some co-workers with $500,000 houses pay in excess of $13,000 per year in property tax alone.

So at the end of the day while I would love to see a NJ Transportation Museum, I am not willing to part with any more money out of my pocket. The State of NJ needs to get its fiscal house in order. We have a long list of items to spend money on before a luxury item like a Museum.

Until such time that the URHS and all the other RR groups in NJ wake up and realize we need to unify rather than splinter further, nothing will change and the collection will continue to languish. Too many big egos and personality conflicts are working against the 'friendly' groups. I have tried more than once to hold out the Olive branch to other local groups and it has gotten broken off each time. This to the point of getting the speeder group I am involved with thrown off one railroad and repeated requests to management to get thrown off another. And no, the event we would run is not in competition with them. Heck we even offered to pay them the entire proceeds from one of the runs and they turned it down flat.

Chris Vitz
Butler, NJ

So might the solution be to put the New Jersey museum in an adjacent state with a more favorable economic climate?

dave

PA has a museum so why would they want it. Upstate New York (and I mean the area just north of NJ) has had the same explosion in prices suffered in NJ. But NY also lacks money for these types of museums.

Additionally, shouldn't those state's limited resources go to their existing museums instead of a totally new one?

The best place for the museum remains to be the Jersey Central Terminal in Jersey City, but I seriously doubt anyone has approached the new political regimes down there. They have been too focused on Phillipsburg which was still born from the beginning and now almost dead and burried.

Chris has really summed up the NJ experience. I have always wondered why NJ keeps electing the clowns they do, but you have to remember that sadly the people who work and pay taxes have given up and either moved out or at the least have stopped voting. Large blocks of people who produce nothing but take plenty are the ones who vote. And then there is Hudson County where the cemetary is full of active voters (NJ makes Chicago look like a student council election by comparison).

We have really beat the preservation in NJ topic to death. It is hopeless, and the URHS "museum collection" will eventually be scrapped. In reality, very little of it is of any significance anyway. If for some reason someone wants to "save" any of these pieces, contact the URHS, be ready to write a check (someone has to pay to keep the Hickory Creek ready for its next Amtrak charter), and have the ability to truck your prize out of the state.

Moving out is something this lifetime New Jersey resident is seriously considering.

The writing is on the wall in this state and the politicos no longer listen to their constituents and still look to line their own pockets or get funding for their local pet projects. To bad we can't link embroyonic stem cell research to RR preservation. Some how hundreds of millions of dollars magically appeared for research in that field in the latest budget when everyone else is told to tighten their belts.

I am starting to agree with SO, sell off whatever is left worth saving to some museums that can care for it because the people of NJ will never be able to appreciate it.

I wish I had something positive to add to this thread - the best thing I can say is I moved out of New Jersey 21 years ago!

This poor horse is no doubt dead enough-but, as I've previously stated when the URHS faction a decade ago convinced Chairman Alex DeCroce that P'Burg was the place to site the Heritage Center, that was the death knell of the whole movement.
Corporate sponsorship funding was the only avenue then to get it funded and now its even more so!
It still baffles me that reasonably rational people could have ever believed that they could get it funded in P'Burg,but they did.
Damn shame as at Liberty State Park it would have long since been up and running-but what is,is.
I'm afraid I must agree with the above post that the most likely long term outcome is that the rather pedestrian collection will slowly but surely deteriorate into junk!
Sad but true!!
Ross Rowland

Instead of beating this very dead horse over and over again, why not join a group in the NY/CT area who already has a track record and could who use the help.

Isn't it better to make a difference somewhere rather than not at all ?

Dave

See what happens when you put your hopes in the government. Will you ever learn?

If you want it and want it bad enough do it yourself. Scrap or sell off the least significant equipment and use the money to buy a plot of land and a pole building for whats left. Start small and grow as funding allows. That is exactly opposite to conventional wisdom which is to put forth a grandiose plan which will take millions of dollars to implement then whine and complain when you can't raise the money. Well there was never any chance that much money could be raised.

The Friends of the Transportation Museum have the pump house in Phillipsburg. Perhaps a small sale museum could be built at that location with a few pieces of equipment. At the very least it would be a location to put up a pole building to house some of the rail equipment.

NH0401 has hit the nail on the head, except that there are organizations right here in NJ where help is needed. Both Pemberton and the NJ Museum of Transportation come to mind. No doubt both need more bodies. Rather than talk, get out and help. Lend a hand. Get involved.