I'll defer to your judgement Mr. Gray in that Roanoke is your home turf. What it might have been is one thing-what it presently is- is another thing.
There's zero doubt in my mind that 763 has an immensly brighter future as part of the O/C stable than it would have had in Roanoke.
That's my only point.
Ross Rowland

I too hope to see the locomotive being sent to the OC and being ran. I was only trying to show why there could possibly be resistance on the part of the museum to let her go.

Seeing that the NKP doesn't quite live up to what we know is their mission, I see it being a great trade off. They get capital to improve their current museum and also help the community by getting a loco out on the rails. I just hope we can see her running sooner than later.

I hope I can see the 6325 run again soon!

-Joe

There's zero doubt in my mind that 763 has an immensly brighter future as part of the O/C stable than it would have had in Roanoke.
That's my only point.
Ross Rowland[/quote]
Ross, I agree entirely. My concern is that based on past experience, there is a chance that the money would "disappear" into "general funds". Speaking strictly about the steam here in Roanoke, there are 4 locomotives in the scrapyard that need to be moved and stabilized, a 2-6-6-4 that was never completely reassembled, (even though it looks pretty good on the surface) and a 2-8-0, an 0-8-0, an 0-6-0, and fireless 0-4-0 that all need attention. Not to mention some significant first generation diesels and rolling stock. The money from 763 certainly wouldn't fix everything, but it would be a good start. And having it spent only on the collection would, IMHO, help VMT's credibility immensely with potential volunteers and donors.

Gary -

Speaking of the 4 N&W engines in the Roanoke scrapyard, how are things progressing on that particular effort?

Les

Building barns is a two-edged sword. Sure it arrests decay, but it does absolutely nothing to preserve the bottom line. While it can be argued that it saves additional paint jobs and reworking past preservation efforts, those in the "junkyard" category are not really getting to the redos anyway. New buildings have ongoing costs that arrive when they are put to use.

With our new barn comes monthly alarm, electrical, insurance and telephone costs. Over time, building maintenance will be an issue. We are looking at $50,000 to repair/replace the roof on another barn that needs it.

Who says that the "general public" wants to see the locomotives run?

HERETIC!! (WINK)

From my experience the general public would much rather see the locomotives run than sit cold and lifeless.

John Bohon

There are few days that I don't think as I read this
list "this is insanity".
Your comments answer this question
Well put!

I sometimes think the public does not care either way: at least, they do not care about our traditional all-day death-march excursions, and they do not care about a depot, a random assortment of railroadiana, and a random assortment of static rusting rolling stock.

We debate how many (running or non-running) steamers can fit on the head of a pin while the people drive by with nary a wave or blink...

We hear again and again that the highest goal is for one of our sites to become "the Colonial Williamsburg of railroading," apparently in blissful ignorance of the fact that Colonial Williamsburg and Old Sturbridge Village are facing long-term attendance declines and are laying off staff...

And the band plays on...

Crochety in Washington

PS--please, none of this should be taken as a direct attack on Brother Bohon, whom I hold in the highest regard; rather, its a musing on all of the above conversation...

They sure as heck do in England! The steam locomotive restoration community thrives on public fares and public interest. It's the difference between visiting a well kept scrap yard and live experience. Not meaning to bark at anyone, but I think live steam versus stuff and mount is the difference between day and night. The British experience would appear to support that.

To a point that is true; but your comparison glosses over differences between Americans and Britians.

The British as a whole are more appreciative of the heritage, and have a much greater sense of history. This is evident in the large number of non-railroad steam and industrial sites that have been preserved; as well as individual steam engines.

And even given all of that; some sites in England are seeing declining interest and closure. A major one was the British Engineerium, Goldstone pumping station in Hove just last May. It was a priceless collection of steam engines and models going back to the early 1800s. Fortunately, a millionare stepped in and bought the entire operation before it could be broken up; but it was a wakeup call for British preservation as well.

http://www.24hourmuseum.org.uk/nwh_gfx_en/ART36676.html

-James Hefner
Hebrews 10:20a

Surviving World Steam Project

I would argue it supports no such thing.

Britain has stuff and mount museums that are major successes, and it has had some major failures. It has had operating steam successes, and operating steam failures. The presence or absence of operating steam is no better correlated with success or failure in Britain than in the US.

The real question, to my mind, is why are the best British operations--operating steam OR static display--apparently more compelling to the public than their US counterparts? What is due to national differences (which is to say, non-replicable), and what could we learn from and replicate?

I submit again--live steam vs. stuff and mount is an argument no one cares about but us. I guarantee I can go out my front door right now and interview the first 50 people I meet--none of them will care one whit whether a steam locomotive runs or not unless I just happen to cross paths with Bill Withuhn by accident. In fact, most of them will just look at me like I have two heads.

I say again, more clearly: PEOPLE DO NOT CARE about this stuff unless we give them a reason to. And having a live fire in the firebox is not, in and of itself, enough of a reason. The public cares only about a quality experience in an appealing overall package competitive with all other leasure time attractions.

The British offer several such experiences, live and static. In my opinion, we offer very few.

This was true, once. I can recall the vast difference between how steam and diesel excursions were received on the Southern. And it may still be true, but to a lesser extent.

Because that difference was a product of nostalgia:



In 2007, how many people fondly remember steam, or even passenger trains, from their youth? In 1953, 90% of rail freight was diesel-hauled. Put another way, there's a 1-in-10 chance that someone now in his or her late 50s was exposed to steam - the odds go down from there.

(Yes, yes, I know. You can come up with examples. The plural of "anecdote" is NOT "data.")

The Nostalgia market for steam is dying - literally - and being replaced by a market for Ms. Pac-Man consoles. Like it or not.

Where the British excel is not hot water - it's creating context and atmosphere. It's not just a steam locomotive - it's a properly-turned-out loco on a properly-turned-out train stopping at properly-turned-out station. It's truly a time machine. Compare that to boarding a multicolored trainset in a parking lot, and sitting in a hermetically sealed coach for hours.

And marketing. Don't forget marketing.

"If you fire it up, they will come" is a fool's business plan.

JAC

Brother Ledbetter hit the nail on the head. It's all about competing for the discretionary recreation dollar.
Only us steamophyles care about the live vs. stuffed and mounted issue and yes, common sense tells you that all other things being equal live wins hands down.
Another valid important point is that the demographics are working strongly against us steam lovers. Those with a personal attachment to steam are fewer every day and that's not going to change.
Guess the lesson is if you want support from the general public for what you're doing with steam you better do a first rate job wrapping it in an interesting package and knock 'em dead in the marketing department!!!
Ross Rowland