Impressive photo taken last month by John West. A 75cm, Polish-design 0-8-0 on this big viaduct worthy of the UK in the 19th Century:

http://www.railpictures.net/viewphoto.php?id=177118

kinda like UK in the 19th century, although those pictured bridge decks are pre-cast concrete.

The scene alone is worth a trip to China. Add the steam train and I sure wish I could go see this place.

John Bohon

Bob, is that really a Polish design ??? Do you know where to get drawings for the Chinese C2 class 0-8-0 ??? I thought these were designed (along lines very similar to some Polish and German engines) as well as built by Harbin Locomotive Works.

That's a very nice and quite interesting photo!

I think they are based on the Polish Px48 class engine; some examples (012 at Ganhe Forestry Railway, 67 at Shanhetun Forestry Railway, 6 at Jiyuan Coal Railway, 06, 08, 506 at Shanhetun Forestry Railway) carry Chrzanow of Poland builder's plates.

They were indeed built at Harbin Locomotive Works, and at Shijiazhuang as well into the 1980s.

-James Hefner
Hebrews 10:20a

Surviving World Steam Project

Greetings:
I believe that the name of the builder of narrow gauge 0-8-0s in Harbin was "Harbin Forest Machinery Factory". Tangshan also included a photo of one in a listing of their products, but I don't know if they actually built any...
J.David

I had a chance to ride behind some of those 0-8-0's on three different ng lines in China in '87 on one of Jim Hutzler's Rail Study Tours. I'd have to dig out my records for the exact places, but they ranged from down near the Yellow R. to all the way N. of Mudangjian (sp?), in former Manchuria. The ones in the far North had vestibule cabs for the extremely cold Winters. I thought they were really "cute". Now there would be a Chinese engine that wouldn't be super difficult to bring to the U. S.

If I get around to digging through my slides, I might post a couple of photos.

Thanks for the information you fellas posted. While I have pretty good primary source material on QJ locomotives, the only thing I have on narrow gauge Chinese steam is hearsay, and the picture book published by China Rail Publishing House in 2001. This big, beautiful book contains numerous errors, omissions, and some well intended but virtually unintelligable translations into "Engrish".

Included are some pictures of narrow gauge 0-8-0s which look similar, and carry three different class designations, but not "C2". One of these otherwise identified examples even has "C2" stenciled on the cab. No mention is made of engines built in Poland or Haerbin, but half a dozen other factories are credited with their production, including Tangshan. Nor is any mention is made of engines built to Polish design in the section on Chinese locomotives which mimic foreign designs.

While I don't doubt that the information you guys posted is correct, I would love to see this confirmed by primary sources. Of course, my Mandarin isn't good enough to know it right off if I saw it....

One of these engines used at the Dahuichang limestone quarry railroad in Beijing has been taken to England for preservation: http:www.c2project.org

I meant http://www.c2project.org

For some reason it didn't occur to me to post this information on this list last year, but here goes: A C2 with a fresh Suijiatun overhaul, all dolled up real nice and decorated real pretty for China Rail, could be had for $30,000 (plus shipping) in March 2006. Not being in a position to act on it, I didn't pursue the matter. Anybody wishing to do so may contact me off list if they would like my assistance.

I don't think any Chinese rail workers read this forum; so I am afraid you won't get any primary sources here. What I share comes from several years of reading railfan reports and other material on the web. Michael Powel used to have a great China Railways website in the 1990s that described the various classes and had pictures of narrow guage locomotives undergoing a overhaul; it is gone, but the Railography site is very good:

http://www.railography.co.uk/info/cn_st ... oindex.htm

Notice however that it only focuses on standard gauge.

In the past, three different classes of narrow gauge 0-8-0s have been reported. The C2s are most common, but the C4 class has been reported at Yu-Dan Railway, Xilin mineral railway, Chenjia Local Railway, and the Wangdu - Baihe Railway, and at Baishan (Hunjiang), Jilin Province. These appear to be a later build of the C2 class; at least two have been seen with a Giesel ejector. Two hav a nameplate of Shijiazhuang (China) from 1981-1986; others have nameplates from Kaifung No 2 and Guandong Sanshui from the 1970s.

The third class is the Kp4 class. Examples of these have been recorded at Jiayang Coalmine; and have nameplates of Chengdugungchang (China)/1988 and Jiayang (China) /1974. Another class of ZM16-4 has been reported at Pengzhou-Baishuihe local railway, with Shijiazhuang and Chengdugungchang/1988 nameplates.

Most Chinese classes seem to originate with foreign designs; I think the same is true for these. Like their other classes; they modified them when they built them. There may be an issue of Continental Railway Journal that described them; but I haven't seen anything yet.

-James Hefner
Hebrews 10:20a

Surviving World Steam Project

The best published resource on Chinese C-2's and their cousins that I have found is a 1995 book entitled "East European Narrow Gauge" by Keith Chester and published by Channel View Publications. I obtained my copy via Transport Diversions website. The final chapter is about the versions of what he calls generally the "PT-4" type built or worked in China. There is much information in the book, but also a lot of fragmentary and missing information. Nevertheless very interesting.

By googling I was also able to find references to a Russian language volume on this general type of ng. loco in the former Soviet Union (where rumors persist of examples still working). But nothing I could find indicated a way to get a copy.

A year ago when a German friend, his Chinese wife and I were photographing the remaining C-2 on the SuiLeng forestry line, the crew suggested the engine came from Russia along with a lot of other equipment for the forestry operation. Given the many overhauls over its life, there was absolutely nothing left on the locomotive that we could find to reveal its origins. Personally, my guess is the Russian origin story was as much legend as truth, and/or the engine may have come from Russia but have been built elsewhere in Eastern Europe.

Interestingly, one of the railways in China still reported to be using C-2's serves a prison area. Foreigners are not allowed in the area, and while I believe a few visitors have slippped in and gotten some pix, I have never seen them. Our guide last month was familiar with the operation and told us that it was unlikely that a foreigner could get permission, and risked arrest if found in the area by police. Of course, maybe if you got arrested you could get some (long term) throttle time on a C-2.

The C-2 is a homely machine, but a simple, reliable and hard working machine whose capabilities seem far greater than its dimunitive size (especially the small drivers) would suggest.

John West

I have a picture of a Soviet Pt4 class 0-8-0 in my database, and sure enough, it is the same locomotive -- small drivers, all weather cab, oval combined sand/steam dome, similiar buffer beams.

Looking through the data I have recieved so far, it appears that some of the factories in the former Eastern Block built Soviet designs along with their own. For example, some of the "standard gauge" (for Russia) Er class 0-10-0s were built by MAVAG of Budapest, Hungary; H. Cegielski works of Poland; Resita of Romania; and Skoda. Another narrow gauge Soviet design was the Gr class (it had a round steam dome and different shaped windows among other features) one example was built by LKM Babelsberg, one of the surviving Pt4 locomotives was recorded as built by Tampella of Tampere.

So if we are talking about post World War II Soviet locomotives; it could very well have been built either in the Eastern Block or the former USSR; and later shipped to China.

-James Hefner
Hebrews 10:20a

Surviving World Steam Project

Here are a few snippets from Chester's book. The PT-4 design evolved from the Class 86 WWI Russian army field railway locomotive. It was successively replaced by the Class 159 (1930), P24 (1941), and finally the PT-4 (1945), all Soviet designs. Since Babelsburg was mentioned above, Chester writes that Babelsburg developed their own "Gr" design based on the P24, the "r" standing for reparations to the USSR. The PT-4 was built in large numbers (somewhere I saw 5,100) in Finland, USSR, Czechoslovakia, Hungary, Poland, and eventually in China. Many of the PT-4's built outside of the USSR were built as war reparations and went to the USSR. Given the many builders, there were many variations. Starting somewhere around 1950 PT-4's started going to China, but there are few records. The Chinese started building PT-4's at Harbin and Shijiazhuang, and classified it as a C-2. Other factories also built C-2's with various designations and variations, and there was also a C-4. Production continued into the 1980's. But records of the Chinese engines are few and far between.

Anyway, Chester's book has a lot of interesting information for anyone interested in European and Chinese ng. locomotives, and is highly recommended.

John