Maybe this is a stupid question but I'm not a mechanical engineer so I pose the question to those who might know.

In all of the recent conversation about operating vs. static preservation and there's been no discussion about diesels. That made me think even further about diesels.

There's a lot of diesels that were interesting to see but due to standardization or mechanical shortcomings, are "no longer with us".-DL-109's, C-Liners,Baldwin Babyfaces yes even the PA's (with the exception of the former ATSF/D&H units). etc.

So here's the question. Could a replica be built? I'm guessing it would be prohibitively expensive to make a completely new unit, but could a reasonable facsimile be built?

Would any of the following paradigms be feasible? Assume cost is no object.

1.) An "exact replica" using newly manufactured components custom made to original spec's, with original materials. Only changes to be made would be those mandated for safety or interchange standards. Yeah, no PCB's in the electrical components (if they were ever used)

2.) An exact replica, using new parts as above but also utilizing old components especially those items which would be overly costly to reproduce-such as a prime mover (to the extent any baldwin prime movers exist)

3.) A reproduction made to exhibit the APPEARANCE of the original. No effort would be made to utilize obselete materials (e.g bakelite) or to reproduce hidden compenents- if a CAT, a 567, an FDL-16 or one of those "new" 251's provide the ponies, great. Likewise, no reason to remanufacture an old main generator or traction motors.

Yeah, this is probably fantasy, but its Christmas and I'm too old for 8 tiny reindeer.

> There's a lot of diesels that were
> interesting to see but due to
> standardization or mechanical shortcomings,
> are "no longer with us".-DL-109's,
> C-Liners,Baldwin Babyfaces yes even the PA's
> (with the exception of the former
> ATSF/D&H units). etc.

Mike,

You'll have to make a trip up north, but you can still see a C-Liner and a Trainmaster. Canadian Pacific set aside one each, and I know the Trainmaster is at the Canadian Railway Museum at Delson, Quebec outside Montreal. Besides, the French girls in Montreal are even prettier than a Fairbanks Morse!

Too bad there are no DL109's or Baby Face Baldwins left.



kevingillespie@usa.net

> You know Kevin your comment about the ladies in Montreal brings me to my pet peeve about this hobby, e.g, way too few women.

We really need to market trains to women more. There's way to few women near trains/museums and a good majority are being dragged by a hubby or children.

Ok, who spiked the eggnog?

> We really need to market trains to women
> more. There's way to few women near
> trains/museums and a good majority are being
> dragged by a hubby or children.

> Ok, who spiked the eggnog?

Hey guys,I'm still here and I'm lovin' every minute of it. It's me who drags the hubby along on the "Great Train Chases" and it's me who is teaching my oldest daughter the difference between an ALCO diesel and an EMD diesel, and I'm the one teaching her to count wheels on a steam loco to identify it's type.There may not be many of us but those of us who are here really appreciate all the great help and encouragement you guys give. So, when you light the Yule log, make a wish for me, that we can save our railroad relics and teach our childre, both male and female, how wonderful they have made our lives and how precious they are.Have a cool Yule, guys, love y'all.

Just Train Crazy,

-Angie


Ladypardus@cs.com

> Mike,

i am thinking that you are thinking beyond the several paint scheme replics of Diesals that ran on Fallen Flag lines. Such as the ones that were done by the Anthrasite Historical Society in New Jersey.

Being a steam man myself, how is the frame made on a first or second generation Diesel? Is is cut out like on a steam loco or were they modern enough for welding to have taken hold and allow for piecing a number of parts together?

As for me, I would rather see that much money spent on a missing steam engine like the famous NY Central Hudson that missed out on preservation
or any of the New Haven classes, as far as I know not a single steam engine from that road exists.


ted_miles@NPS.gov

It might be a better use of funds to prowl he dead and scrap lines in other parts of the world for hulks or parts that can be salvaged and reused as the basis of replicas. I don't know if anybody has done for early diesels what many have done for steam and sought out the dumps all over the world.

Repairing an existing frame from a scrapyard in Slobbovia is probably a cheaper idea than trying to fabricate a new one from scratch, and presereves more original material too.

Dave

irondave@bellsouth.net

Hey there ya'll,
I'd like to second that notion, more women should be intrested in our hobby/profession. I'm glad to see people like Angie out the enjoying it. Happy holidays!!!

Straight ahead,
Jeff Lisowski
West Chester, Pa

unfunkyufo76@hotmail.com

Back to the original question, I believe the only likely candidates for "appearance" reconstruction might be EMD passenger units that are long departed. These might include E7As and Bs, which might be remodeled from some of the excess E8 and E9As still in existance. These are somewhat different internally than E7s, so the arrangement of cooling fans, etc. would have to be changed. It would be a big, expensive job, but is probably do-able. Oddbal units, like the Rock Island TAs and AB6s might also be possible with more work. The press-formed windshield area of Es and Fs seems to be the primary carbody component needed for the TA. Surprisingly, at least a couple of model railroaders saved this item and built a partial F-unit "cab" in their downstairs trainrooms.

Maybe this is a stupid question but I'm not
> a mechanical engineer so I pose the question
> to those who might know.

> In all of the recent conversation about
> operating vs. static preservation and
> there's been no discussion about diesels.
> That made me think even further about
> diesels.

> There's a lot of diesels that were
> interesting to see but due to
> standardization or mechanical shortcomings,
> are "no longer with us".-DL-109's,
> C-Liners,Baldwin Babyfaces yes even the PA's
> (with the exception of the former
> ATSF/D&H units). etc.

> So here's the question. Could a replica be
> built? I'm guessing it would be
> prohibitively expensive to make a completely
> new unit, but could a reasonable facsimile
> be built?

> Would any of the following paradigms be
> feasible? Assume cost is no object.

> 1.) An "exact replica" using newly
> manufactured components custom made to
> original spec's, with original materials.
> Only changes to be made would be those
> mandated for safety or interchange
> standards. Yeah, no PCB's in the electrical
> components (if they were ever used)

> 2.) An exact replica, using new parts as
> above but also utilizing old components
> especially those items which would be overly
> costly to reproduce-such as a prime mover
> (to the extent any baldwin prime movers
> exist)

> 3.) A reproduction made to exhibit the
> APPEARANCE of the original. No effort would
> be made to utilize obselete materials (e.g
> bakelite) or to reproduce hidden compenents-
> if a CAT, a 567, an FDL-16 or one of those
> "new" 251's provide the ponies,
> great. Likewise, no reason to remanufacture
> an old main generator or traction motors.

> Yeah, this is probably fantasy, but its
> Christmas and I'm too old for 8 tiny
> reindeer.


bobyar2001@yahoo.com

Gents:

If you have access to infinite resources and you are really wanting to do something of the sort GO FOR IT! A few comments on the different propsals:

Example 1: If you build a Baldwin Babyface (or better yet--a Centipede!) to OEM specs from scratch, do you really want to run it? For goodness sake, anything that exotic warrants immediate preservation--unless you are going to start a production line for Baldwin prime-movers.

Example 2: This is a cheaper alternative of #1. With the E's and F's out there, kitbashing the entire EMD cab unit line is possible. On the Alco front, it is more limited, and on Baldwin and FM, you are dealing with extinct motive power (leastwise for the carbodies) There are probably enough mechanical and electrical components to ease much of the work, but trucks (especially any 3 axle designs) will be the toughest part.

Example three is already being done by Ross Rowland. Setting historic fabric issues aside, this may be the only means of having vintage design diesels able to run on class 1 mainlines without field support problems.

There is a fourth alternative that, while I am sure that purists will cring at, has some merit for completely extinct designs. The entire locomotive could be built as a set piece-ala Hollywood-the carbody can be made out of whatever, so long as the appearance of metal is met...but however would you do trucks? If there is no expectation that the engine will run, or need to, and you really want to demonstrate a particular design (the DL-109?) this might be practical. Of course with all these alternatives you would need to explain that they are recreations of engines lost but that should be obvious already

Merry Christmas!

Michael Seitz
Missoula MT

> Maybe this is a stupid question but I'm not
> a mechanical engineer so I pose the question
> to those who might know.

> In all of the recent conversation about
> operating vs. static preservation and
> there's been no discussion about diesels.
> That made me think even further about
> diesels.

> There's a lot of diesels that were
> interesting to see but due to
> standardization or mechanical shortcomings,
> are "no longer with us".-DL-109's,
> C-Liners,Baldwin Babyfaces yes even the PA's
> (with the exception of the former
> ATSF/D&H units). etc.

> So here's the question. Could a replica be
> built? I'm guessing it would be
> prohibitively expensive to make a completely
> new unit, but could a reasonable facsimile
> be built?

> Would any of the following paradigms be
> feasible? Assume cost is no object.

> 1.) An "exact replica" using newly
> manufactured components custom made to
> original spec's, with original materials.
> Only changes to be made would be those
> mandated for safety or interchange
> standards. Yeah, no PCB's in the electrical
> components (if they were ever used)

> 2.) An exact replica, using new parts as
> above but also utilizing old components
> especially those items which would be overly
> costly to reproduce-such as a prime mover
> (to the extent any baldwin prime movers
> exist)

> 3.) A reproduction made to exhibit the
> APPEARANCE of the original. No effort would
> be made to utilize obselete materials (e.g
> bakelite) or to reproduce hidden compenents-
> if a CAT, a 567, an FDL-16 or one of those
> "new" 251's provide the ponies,
> great. Likewise, no reason to remanufacture
> an old main generator or traction motors.

> Yeah, this is probably fantasy, but its
> Christmas and I'm too old for 8 tiny
> reindeer.


mikefrommontana@juno.com

>Merry Christmas,
As far as prime movers, Fairbanks also built stationary power plants and some of those are still around. Did any of the other manufacture's ?
M. Nix

2rivers@upstel.net

I am one of the few women who enjoy trains. My father raised me with the hobby. One of my hobbies is maintaining forums with a railroad theme. My most popular one, granted, is corny but it draws a lot of women readers. Below is the link to it. It is from a woman's angle so it might not be appealing to the members here. I'm attaching the link anyways.

Tales on the Rails

Ruth,looks like the link to your forum is bad. Clicked on it and all I got was a page could not be displayed message. The forum sounds interesting, can you try and relink it somehow?

Jut Train Crazy,

-Angie

Ladypardus@cs.com

RE: Women and trains.

One member we had (who unfortunately died before she was 40) was Helen Tucker. Helen was one of our diehards, and was a person who I looked up to as a role model. Kind, considerate, fair, incredibly smart (but did not let it show to put others down) and al-round really nice person.

I have 2 girls (11 and 14) who help out with restoration and firing our Shay; to me and all of the other restoration people, it is not only OK, but natural, thanks (at least in part) to Helen Tucker forging the path.

John Stewart
Ottawa, Canada.



john.stewart@crc.ca

> Ruth,looks like the link to your forum is
> bad. Clicked on it and all I got was a page
> could not be displayed message. The forum
> sounds interesting, can you try and relink
> it somehow?

> Jut Train Crazy,

> -Angie

Angie,

I redid the link to Tales on the Rails

Steamingly,
Steamer4040

Tales on the Rails

No, your question is not STUPID-it is an interesting one-to me in particular. I say this from the perspective of being an ME with a more than little bit of theoretical and hands-on on d/e locos. Additionally, I have done some substantial research on the subject-and in one case a partial feasibility study of producing a replica for a "paying customer."

Note that my answer doesn't consider the "essential validity" of any such reproduction. That is an argument for another group of folks. I am only considering the technical issues.

So, the short answer to your question(s) is 1)yes 2)yes and 3) yes...in the abstract sense. In the concrete sense, the answers would be different-as I will explain.

In reality, the answer to number 1 would be NO. The primary reason is that resources for rail preservation-both financial and otherwise will always be constrained in this country. The interest is just not there !!!
To put it another way, the unit cost of any completed portion of a given unit would be astronomical.
How many shop drawings do you think are required to build a Baldwin 608 ?

The answer to number 2 would be YES. This possibility has been researched and here is an example to prove it. The concept was simple-could a replica DL-109 be constructed ? The answer was as follows:

The purchase of (2) Alco S series switchers would yield most the mechanical and electrical components required to equip the locomotive. This was confirmed by comparing the parts books for the two different designs. I don't think that S-series switchers are very valuable on the resale market-so the cost would be nominal.

Carbody ?-This is standard fab shop stuff-if one has a set of shop drawings. Of course (and I have this on good authority !!!), they are long gone !! An Alco carbody unit is composed of (5) main sections-the underframe,the (2) sides, the roof and the nose. The sideframe and the underframe are "simple", they are built of (mostly) standard structural items-and are assembled on simple lay-down jigs and fixtures. The roof is assembled the same way-but,is of course complicated by the curvature. The "nose" is probably the most complicated assembly to build-although one of "my guys" was able to dope that out from some photos.
Sound good so far ? Well, here is the issue...we'll zero in on the sideframe as an example.

There is an assembly drawing for the side. This drawing references an entire group of other drawings that cover such things as pieces of H-beam, flat stock, etc. So, the bottom line is this: one needs to create a rather large pile of drawings just to build one portion of the locomotive.

Even with CAD, CAM and all that other neat stuff-this is still going to run into some big $$$$$
Need I go any further ?

> Maybe this is a stupid question but I'm not
> a mechanical engineer so I pose the question
> to those who might know.

> In all of the recent conversation about
> operating vs. static preservation and
> there's been no discussion about diesels.
> That made me think even further about
> diesels.

> There's a lot of diesels that were
> interesting to see but due to
> standardization or mechanical shortcomings,
> are "no longer with us".-DL-109's,
> C-Liners,Baldwin Babyfaces yes even the PA's
> (with the exception of the former
> ATSF/D&H units). etc.

> So here's the question. Could a replica be
> built? I'm guessing it would be
> prohibitively expensive to make a completely
> new unit, but could a reasonable facsimile
> be built?

> Would any of the following paradigms be
> feasible? Assume cost is no object.

> 1.) An "exact replica" using newly
> manufactured components custom made to
> original spec's, with original materials.
> Only changes to be made would be those
> mandated for safety or interchange
> standards. Yeah, no PCB's in the electrical
> components (if they were ever used)

> 2.) An exact replica, using new parts as
> above but also utilizing old components
> especially those items which would be overly
> costly to reproduce-such as a prime mover
> (to the extent any baldwin prime movers
> exist)

> 3.) A reproduction made to exhibit the
> APPEARANCE of the original. No effort would
> be made to utilize obselete materials (e.g
> bakelite) or to reproduce hidden compenents-
> if a CAT, a 567, an FDL-16 or one of those
> "new" 251's provide the ponies,
> great. Likewise, no reason to remanufacture
> an old main generator or traction motors.

> Yeah, this is probably fantasy, but its
> Christmas and I'm too old for 8 tiny
> reindeer.


74471.3045@compuserve.com