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 Post subject: Re: So Who Should Preserve an Amtrak AEM-7?
PostPosted: Mon Feb 24, 2014 12:57 pm 

Joined: Sun Aug 22, 2004 8:28 am
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Location: Salt Lake City, Utah
Bulby wrote:
IRM's caternary isn't set up for pantographs


Thankfully, nobody told this to the people who operated the South Shore 800 class locomotive at IRM during Labor Day Weekend last year for the museum's anniversary:

Image

Or to the crew who operated the South Shore cars at IRM for the CERA anniversary visit this past fall:

Image

I think a more correct statement is that IRM's overhead isn't optimally suited, presently for pantograph operation. You have to do a lot of coasting through frogs, and it's just faster to tow the train out to the station tracks than doing pan "leap frog" in the yard. However, install some pan jumps for some of the switch frogs, replace some line poles and wire hangers, and it would be possible.

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 Post subject: Re: So Who Should Preserve an Amtrak AEM-7?
PostPosted: Mon Feb 24, 2014 2:08 pm 

Joined: Tue Nov 12, 2013 6:45 pm
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wilkinsd wrote:
Bulby wrote:
IRM's caternary isn't set up for pantographs


Thankfully, nobody told this to the people who operated the South Shore 800 class locomotive at IRM during Labor Day Weekend last year for the museum's anniversary

Or to the crew who operated the South Shore cars at IRM for the CERA anniversary visit this past fall

I think a more correct statement is that IRM's overhead isn't optimally suited, presently for pantograph operation. You have to do a lot of coasting through frogs, and it's just faster to tow the train out to the station tracks than doing pan "leap frog" in the yard. However, install some pan jumps for some of the switch frogs, replace some line poles and wire hangers, and it would be possible.


David,

I'm aware pantograph equipped locomotives and cars can be operated; I never said they couldn't be; but I stand by the statement the overhead isn't set up for pantographs because you have to drop the pan and coast through frogs (not all, most). If you have to add anything to the overhead to make it work better for pantographs, than it isn't set up for pantographs.

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 Post subject: Re: So Who Should Preserve an Amtrak AEM-7?
PostPosted: Mon Feb 24, 2014 3:58 pm 

Joined: Sat Aug 28, 2004 3:25 am
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Regarding IRM running their South Shore survivors: Most of us are already aware that South Shore and Illinois Central electric suburban cars ran on 1500 volts DC, so they will run on 600 volts DC with some modifications. Northeast Corridor units run on 11,000 volts AC, so making them operable on DC is a larger task, although, as I recall, those that run on the former New Haven electrification can run on 600 volts DC because of the third-rail electrification into Grand Central Station.

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 Post subject: Re: So Who Should Preserve an Amtrak AEM-7?
PostPosted: Mon Feb 24, 2014 9:46 pm 

Joined: Thu Nov 22, 2007 5:46 am
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Location: S.F. Bay Area
Bob, the voltage doesn't really concern me.

wilkinsd wrote:
I think a more correct statement is that IRM's overhead isn't optimally suited, presently for pantograph operation. You have to do a lot of coasting through frogs, and it's just faster to tow the train out to the station tracks than doing pan "leap frog" in the yard. However, install some pan jumps for some of the switch frogs, replace some line poles and wire hangers, and it would be possible.

Yeah. The problem is that until that's done, the failure mode of a pan on bad wire is fairly... explosive. WRM's shop has done more pans recently than I want to think about.

Keep in mind it's not like "throw pan switch, pan drops"... it's more like "throw pan switch, hope and wait for pan to maybe think about dropping". Outside of sudden new damage in front of you, I wouldn't recommend lowering a pan on the fly to avoid hazard.


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 Post subject: Re: So Who Should Preserve an Amtrak AEM-7?
PostPosted: Tue Feb 25, 2014 1:16 am 

Joined: Tue Nov 12, 2013 6:45 pm
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robertmacdowell wrote:
Keep in mind it's not like "throw pan switch, pan drops"... it's more like "throw pan switch, hope and wait for pan to maybe think about dropping". Outside of sudden new damage in front of you, I wouldn't recommend lowering a pan on the fly to avoid hazard.


However, as David pointed out, IRM's operating practices require dropping the pan and coasting through the frogs. It can be done; but its not ideal for regular operations.

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 Post subject: Re: So Who Should Preserve an Amtrak AEM-7?
PostPosted: Wed Feb 26, 2014 10:52 am 

Joined: Sun Oct 19, 2008 12:58 pm
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Location: Chicago USA
Weren't some AEM7's not rebuilt with AC traction?

The GG1 has series-wound (brush/commutator) motors designed for 25Hz AC and, as has been discussed previously, should run just fine on DC. Pick 4 out of the 12 in the best condition and wire them up with trolley car resistor grids and controls. The non AC AEM7's would have DC motors and the same would go for them depending on what voltage the motors were designed for but it seems likely that 600V DC with trolley apparatus ought to be able to run them especially since 100+ MPH operation isn't needed.

An intriguing possibility would be with the AEM7-AC's. The AC trolley voltage is stepped down with a transformer, rectified to DC, then fed to computer-controlled inverters to make what I like to call synthetic AC whose frequency and voltage are matched to the increasing speed of the locomotive. Depending on what the voltage is on that intermediate point known as the DC link, it might be possible to inject 600V from the pan at that point and make it work.

What was it that IRM was supposed to be getting---an E33? Can you imagine doing these things to all of them and making 4.5 miles of trolley wire through midwest soybean fields be the place to see vintage NEC power in actual operation?

Steve


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 Post subject: Re: So Who Should Preserve an Amtrak AEM-7?
PostPosted: Wed Feb 26, 2014 11:02 am 

Joined: Wed Feb 11, 2009 8:24 am
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George Jackson Churchward wrote:
uboat2525 wrote:
I Don't see the board at the RMNE to Pursue one of these , the m2-m4s are being removed from service by MN and CDOT and there are no plans to acquire any of them , the RMNE is an operational museum and with that said no Overhead Catenary and no 3rd Rail "these are my observations" ---- there you go Brent before you open your trap!


Hmm. Observations by someone unhappy that the said organization has no such plans?

In my experience, it's always better to start with basic information before expressing such "observations" in a public setting. In an instance like this, reference to an existing collections policy would be a worthwhile starting point before criticizing persons or decisions you may disagree with, particularly along the lines of "why don't you guys get one of those." I'm sure you'll find that an organization like the one you mention will have such a policy, in writing, that outlines the scope of its collecting in terms of history, technology, and/or era. Likely, there will be a curatorial committee or staff who can explain the policies that a given museum has adopted in such regard. In this particular instance, denigrating an individual who appears, based on his own postings on this forum, to be an authorized spokesman for the organization is probably not the best way forward toward obtaining the basic information you seem to be missing.



NO not all unhappy with the RMNE's position, --- its not worth the headaches and based on the fact , the RMNE is or has disposed of all or most Electrics I believe it does not fit on the plates on museum volunteers/financial resources, resources that are all ready stretched thin,

there was only one piece that I cared about as far as the electrics in the collection, and that piece has been preserved thou its going along way from Home

and I believe the reason it went is already mentioned above


Again I have to State "these are my statements and not those of the BOD at the RMNE. -
no information in my comments should be construed as Press Worthy Fact" - "wait 5 minutes the facts could change" - there you have it in a nutshell

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 Post subject: Re: So Who Should Preserve an Amtrak AEM-7?
PostPosted: Wed Feb 26, 2014 11:05 am 

Joined: Sun Aug 22, 2004 1:51 pm
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filmteknik wrote:
Weren't some AEM7's not rebuilt with AC traction?

Yes, approximately half of the fleet. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EMD_AEM-7 if you must know the details.
Quote:
What was it that IRM was supposed to be getting---an E33?

I'd sure like to know where you got that fanciful idea. Two exist, ex-New Haven 131 at the RR Museum of New England and ex-Virginian 235 at the Va. Museum of Transportation, and I don't know of either one being "available." IS RMNE making the E33 available as alleged/hinted above?


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 Post subject: Re: So Who Should Preserve an Amtrak AEM-7?
PostPosted: Wed Feb 26, 2014 11:12 am 

Joined: Sun Aug 22, 2004 8:28 am
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Location: Salt Lake City, Utah
Alexander D. Mitchell IV wrote:
I'd sure like to know where you got that fanciful idea. Two exist, ex-New Haven 131 at the RR Museum of New England and ex-Virginian 235 at the Va. Museum of Transportation, and I don't know of either one being "available." IS RMNE making the E33 available as alleged/hinted above?


IRM's acquisition of an E33 is a reality, Sandy. Just because you don't know about it, does not make it "fanciful."

The E33 in question is at RMNE's Old Saybrook facility and is being slowly prepped for the move west.

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 Post subject: Re: So Who Should Preserve an Amtrak AEM-7?
PostPosted: Wed Feb 26, 2014 11:55 am 

Joined: Thu Jan 12, 2006 10:10 pm
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Location: Iron City
Quote:
An intriguing possibility would be with the AEM7-AC's. The AC trolley voltage is stepped down with a transformer, rectified to DC, then fed to computer-controlled inverters to make what I like to call synthetic AC whose frequency and voltage are matched to the increasing speed of the locomotive. Depending on what the voltage is on that intermediate point known as the DC link, it might be possible to inject 600V from the pan at that point and make it work.


It is not possible. If you care to argue, get out your AEM-7 print and explain yourself. I have mine ready.

Once again, I need to remind everyone that Amtraks' currently equipment plan states clearly, in plain English, that no retired equipment will be donated. Many of us in the railroad supply industry can guess the reason for this decision.

I will admit that an inquiry from a US Senator in the NEC service area may result in one or two locos being awarded to suitable museum facilities-probably without the internals.

There is also the possibility that this equipment will be sold to off-shore operators of similar equipment.

Dave

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 Post subject: Re: So Who Should Preserve an Amtrak AEM-7?
PostPosted: Wed Feb 26, 2014 5:09 pm 

Joined: Sun Oct 19, 2008 12:58 pm
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Re: DC Link idea

It is not possible. If you care to argue, get out your AEM-7 print and explain yourself. I have mine ready.

I do not doubt you are correct but would appreciate a brief enlightening.

Any objection to the trolley car apparatus idea?

Steve


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 Post subject: Re: So Who Should Preserve an Amtrak AEM-7?
PostPosted: Thu Feb 27, 2014 3:00 pm 

Joined: Thu Jan 12, 2006 10:10 pm
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Location: Iron City
Steve-

The answer is very simple. The auxiliaries (blowers, etc) are all powered by AC induction motors driven off a transformer tap.

Dave

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 Post subject: Re: So Who Should Preserve an Amtrak AEM-7?
PostPosted: Thu Feb 27, 2014 3:41 pm 

Joined: Thu Nov 22, 2007 5:46 am
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Location: S.F. Bay Area
NH0401 wrote:
The answer is very simple. The auxiliaries (blowers, etc) are all powered by AC induction motors driven off a transformer tap.

As is the auxiliary equipment on BART. Except without the transformer tap, since it is a DC system.

As it was described to me, BART uses all commodity 3-phase AC motors like the ones in your shop. They use an inverter that makes 480vac3ph out of third rail voltage. They then have a commodity light-industrial transformer which knocks 1 phase of the 480 down to 220 split phase for the smallest stuff, just like an Amtrak car.

Maintaining 1 inverter & using anyone for motor overhaul > weird DC motors and power supplies everywhere.

While it was innovative when they did it, the price drops and propagation of this technology make it "the thing to do".

I assume a similar philosophy would guide operational restoration of a mainline electric.


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 Post subject: Re: So Who Should Preserve an Amtrak AEM-7?
PostPosted: Thu Feb 27, 2014 10:53 pm 

Joined: Sun Oct 19, 2008 12:58 pm
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Thanks, Dave. That really doesn't sound like such a deal breaker. We both know this is pretty far-fetched but I'd suspect that if someone was really going to do it they'd figure out a way to power those things. Worst case scenario, put a generator in a baggage car.

So what is the DC link voltage? Anything close enough to 600V to make the rest of the scheme possible? Don't the AC toasters have an inverter for HEP? Maybe HEP can be fed to an appropriate transformer to supply power.

BTW, what do they do about the blowers and so forth running on 60 or 25 Hz? Switchable number of poles on the motors or something?

Steve


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 Post subject: Re: So Who Should Preserve an Amtrak AEM-7?
PostPosted: Sat Oct 18, 2014 11:52 pm 

Joined: Wed Sep 24, 2014 1:48 pm
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wilkinsd wrote:


IRM's acquisition of an E33 is a reality, Sandy. Just because you don't know about it, does not make it "fanciful."

The E33 in question is at RMNE's Old Saybrook facility and is being slowly prepped for the move west.


So when possibly is the E33 going to be showing up at IRM David?

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