All this discussion of the Steamtown collection got me to musing about preservation in general. In particular, a comparison between Nelson Blount and Paulsen Spence.

Both men collected large amounts of steam equipment and rolling stock as it was facing scrapping by the major railroads. (Paulsen Spence had up to 35 pieces of steam locomotives and rolling stock.) Nelson Blount only had intentions of running a museum and tourist trains; Paulsen had hoped the Louisiana Eastern RR would become what is now I-20 between Baton Rouge and Mississippi.

I assume both men died sudden deaths. I know Nelson Blount died in a plane crash; I do not know what happened to Paulsen Spence. As we know, the Steamtown Collection is more or less still with us; with all but a few of pieces still in preservation. On the other hand, out of the Paulsen Spence collection, only one or two locomotives remain.

It is the difference in the fate of the two collections I was thinking about. Why did the Blount collection all go to good homes (for the most part), while the Spence collection went to scrap?

Did Nelson Blount leave a foundation or organization behind to care for the collection, or was it his family? Obviously, Paulsen Spence did not leave any of his passion for preservation behind with his family or anyone else; IIRC his family was all too happy to scrap it all and be done with it.

To some people, both individuals were just "grown men playing with trains", but in my book Nelson Blount was a preservationist. The fact that so many years after his death the bulk of his collection is a national park, with many of the pieces since sold into good hands as well, speaks volumes. Was it just luck; or good planning, good "spreading the faith", and a good inheritance that made it happen?

I've delibrately choose two individuals for this, but I think the lessons learned from it could apply to historical societies and museums as well. There is nothing magical about museum status; I have seen/heard of more than one museum that was single individual's collection open to the public.

What are the long-term plans for your collection? If you died, or your organization lost key members, what would happen to the collection? Are there legal plans, financial plans, and organization plans that should be made to insure the long-term safety of your collection? Perhaps having the property it is on paid for, plus a foundation to fund care of it in the future? Maybe gaining park status with the city or state?

At one time, I thought it would be neat to gather all of the remaining stationary engines here in the East Texas/Louisiana area under one roof as a working museum. But if I did, would it just end up like the "Alamo Citrus Center", with one or more major pieces scrapped and the rest scattered to the four winds? What should be in place to try to prevent this from happening?

It would seem like preservation is two-fold. Like museums such as the IRM, these two men rescued locomotives that otherwise faced certain scrapping. It also appeared that like a museum, they were good caretakers of the equipment they had collected, just like the IRM and other museums.

But, Nelson Blount had something in place while he was alive that enabled his collection to continue existing after he died. Paulsen Spence obviously did not. And while private collectors may be frowned upon by some because of the example of Paulsen Spence, Nelson Blount shows that individuals can often step in where museums fear to tread, and leave behind something that can become a museum in itself.

But what we can do as museums, historical societies, and museums to ensure the same long-term success as he had? Me thinks it ties together much of what we have been talking about on this board as of late, including getting more young people and family members involved, and keeping our priorities straight. I would love you to hear your thoughts.

(On a side note, was the ex-SP ex-Greenville Bros. 0-6-0 sunk in a gravel pit in Enon, LA part of Spence's collection, a partner's (Morse & Ory) locomotive, or something different entirely?)

-James Hefner
Hebrews 10:20a

Louisiana Eastern RR
james1@pernet.net

> It is the difference in the fate of the two
> collections I was thinking about. Why did
> the Blount collection all go to good homes
> (for the most part), while the Spence
> collection went to scrap?

> Did Nelson Blount leave a foundation or
> organization behind to care for the
> collection, or was it his family?

By the time Nelson died most of the engines and other artifacts were under the ownership of the Steamtown Foundation, a legally separate entity. They were not part of Mr. Blount's personal estate and did not pass to his heirs.

It was the Steamtown Foundation that carried on, doing the best it could in the absence of its founder and major benefactor, ultimately moving to Scanton, and finally selling most of the collection to the USPS, and selling the rest at auction to satisfy creditors.

Not sure about Spence, but I assume the engines were either his personal property of the property of his family-owned business, which amounts to the same thing. Either way the collection was under the control of the heirs once he died.

eledbetter@rypn.org

> Not sure about Spence, but I assume the
> engines were either his personal property of
> the property of his family-owned business,
> which amounts to the same thing. Either way
> the collection was under the control of the
> heirs once he died.

With all due respect, I think we are getting a little sloppy in our use of terminolgy. "Preservation," "Museum," and "Collections" are being used interchangably, when they clearly don't apply to some of these things.

Spence was an eccentric businessman with railroad-building ambitions. He accumulated locomotives to power a railroad by-pass around the New Orleans area that he envisioned. He didn't "collect" engines with an eye to "preserve" them or to start a musuem. He didn't like railfans and often banned them from his property. He bought a lot of locomotives, scrapped the ones that didn't meet his needs, repaired and stored some, and operated a few of them. His plans were pie-in-the-sky, but he proceeded with his plans in something of a business-like fashion; he bought switchers, passenger engines and road and local freight engines with a specific assignment in mind for each.

His heirs, who knew the railroad scheme was not going to fly, quickly junked the stuff, except for 2 or 3 engines. Had Spence lived and figured out on his own that his scheme wasn't going to
work, it's hard to say what he would have done with the assortment of engines.

But it's not very likely he would have opend a museum or given them away. He never gave away anything.

> I do not know what happened to Paulsen Spence.

He died of a heart attack in New York's Penn Station.

> Did Nelson Blount leave a foundation or
> organization behind to care for the
> collection, or was it his family?

If my memory serves me correct, the non-profit Steamtown Foundation was started shortly before his death. This was after plans for his collection to become part of a state railroad museum in NH died off with a change in leadership in that state's government. It was also after VT beckoned him over, but ultimately offered little real support. Until this point, individual pieces in the collection were the property of his various holding and operating companies. The static locomotives (the bulk of the collection) were transfered to the foundation, while most of the operating locomotives (CPR Pacifics 1246 and 1293 and CNR Mogul 89) found themselves under ownership of Blount's Green Mountain RR. Following Blount's death in 1967, the non-profit foundation and the for-profit GMR pretty much went their separate ways. With Blount's direct or indirect support no longer there, the foundation truly struggled over the years to keep Steamtown USA alive and operating--the remote location, harsh winters, and VT's anti-billboard laws making things even more difficult. Eventually the foundation came to terms with the fact the museum needed to be closer to a major population center and have greater local support (such as was offered by Scranton at the time) to survive.

> Paulsen Spence did not leave any of his
> passion for preservation behind with his
> family or anyone else; IIRC his family was
> all too happy to scrap it all and be done
> with it.

Unfortunately, that's pretty much the story.
Of course remember this happened in 1961, at a time when steam locomotives were still being regularly cut up for scrap in North America. I'm pretty sure the thought of SEVERAL ex-NKP Hudsons getting the torch was much less of a shock four decades ago than it would have been if it happened yesterday. Also the LE wasn't some stillborn museum, but a privately owned business venture (both the proposed rail bypass and the exisiting Gulf Sand & Gravel operation) and that his heirs most likely considered his collection little more than another of his assets for disposal. Prior to his death, Spence himself had sent locomotives (a GM&O 2-8-2 or two come to mind) to scrap when they had problems or didn't fit into his plans. Although both Blount and Spence "collected" steam locomotives (roughy about a decade apart), Blount was collecting for ultimately for preservation, and IMHO Spence was collecting more to fill out a roster of usuable engines for his proposed rail venture. Still, it was a major loss and I often wonder if Spence's wife and daughters ever realized how much more money they could have gotten above scrap value for a NKP Hudson if they had waited a few years!

BTW: there are 4 locomotives saved from the Spence collection. The two 4-4-0's at Stone Mountain, ex-Mississippi Central 4-4-0 98 on the Wliminton & Western RR in DE, and ex-GM&N / GM&O 4-6-2 425 on the Reading & Northern RR in PA.

> after his death the bulk of his [Blount's] collection
> is a national park, with many of the pieces
> since sold into good hands as well, speaks
> volumes. Was it just luck; or good planning,
> good "spreading the faith", and a
> good inheritance that made it happen?

A LOT of luck... plus the early foundation leadership of Barbera (sp?) and Ball--backed by good paid and volunteer help--in VT allowed the collection to survive long enough to be able to relocate to closer to a larger population and tourist center. While all the folks who followed behind Blount's footsteps may have sharred in his vision for Steamtown, they unfortunately didn't share in his financial resources. It took all of us--well in form of all of our tax dollars--to finally secure Blount's vision of Steamtown for future generations to experience. Say what you want against today's Steamtown NHS--and while I'm not sure how closely the Steamtown NHS matches the vision he had--IMHO I think he would approve.

Regards,
Jim Robinson

For setting the record straight regarding Paulsen Spence. I tried to do some homework on him before formulating my message. None of my books talk aboout him in any detail, the webpage I linked to in my first message and the one below were the only ones I could on the net. (And the author of this one states "This information has been gathered 40 years after the fact with nothing but written accounts to go by. While believed to be substantially correct, it should not be taken as gospel!"

The fact that Paulsen Spence was trying to build a railroad (The Louisiana Eastern) while Blount was trying to build a museum certainly explains the different results. I was also not aware that the Steamtown Foundation was already in place prior to Blount's death.

As large as Blount's collection was, it is amazing how much of it remains in preservation, both inside and outside of Steamtown.

Finally, my apoligies to Earl for my terminology. I can see why you say that in regards to Spence, but I knew little more about him than what I had in my original message. He was certainly a businessman and not a private collector, much less a museum or preservation society.

(He died a year before I was born, so I have some catching up to do.) :)

-James Hefner
Hebrews 10:20a

Yesteryear Depot - Louisiana Eastern RR
james1@pernet.net

The story I've heard (from the late Wilbur Golsen, who often ran the engines at the Louisiana Eastern))is that Spence and his wife were not close at all, and fought frequently. When he died, disposing of his locomotives was a way at getting back at him. Another version is that the IC mechanical officer at McComb, MS refused to allow any of them to travel on their own wheels over IC rails.

ryarger@rypn.org

As long as we are talking about early collectors, what is the story behind these gentlemen?

Dave

irondave@bellsouth.net

> The story I've heard (from the late Wilbur
> Golsen, who often ran the engines at the
> Louisiana Eastern))is that Spence and his
> wife were not close at all, and fought
> frequently. When he died, disposing of his
> locomotives was a way at getting back at
> him. Another version is that the IC
> mechanical officer at McComb, MS refused to
> allow any of them to travel on their own
> wheels over IC rails.

I wouldn't want to go too far in disputing Wilbur, especially since he can't defend himself, but there some holes in that story.

First, Spence didn't get along very well with any of his relatives. They viewed him as crazy, and as wasting the income and resources of his businesses on a railroad scheme. (the differnce between crazy and eccentric is that the eccentric is crazy, but has money).

Second, his locomotives got to the LE via the IC, and he hired IC shopmen from McComb, MS (site of an IC carshop and locootive shop) to do much of his mechanical work. Several of his locomotives were purchased from the IC, including at least one 4-6-2 and several 0-6-0's and 0-8-0's.

Finally, a local mechanical officer does not now and did not then have that much autonomy and/or authority. If Spence wanted to move an engine, was willing and able to pay the tarrif rate, and the engine passed inspection, it could be moved. He could appeal to the ICC if he thought he was being mistreated. Not only that, he was an IC customer, and they would have been more likely to work with him because of that.

Spence's family knew there was not going to be a railroad built; they wanted to get rid of the stuff while it still had some value, even if it was just scrap value.

And I don't recall any hue and cry, or any real effort by railfans and/or established museums at the time, to buy any of the engines, parts, tools, etc. Overlooked in the discussion of his locomotives are the dozens of carloads of parts and supplies he also bought. What would boxcar loads of new and rebuilt air pumps, injectors, dynamos, stokers, tires, packings, lubricators, flues and tubes, lubricants, water pumps, Alemite guns, and myriad repair parts for all of these things be worth today?

This stuff all went to scrap, too.

James,

weather we like it or not the way to pass on collections of anything in the US is to give it or sell it to a non-profit organization. Thus the Steamtown Foundation. Mr Spence did not do this and his collection went by by.

Weather it is art, toys, boats, cars or whatever it is a non-profit organization that will last beyond one lifetime. Museums are simply places that exist to care and display things of value.

There are museums for everything. Pez candy anyone? Trains of course. The Kalemback directory is now over 2" thick! I work in a maritime museum: I wish there were nearly as many as trains... I wish that there was a Thomas The tank engine for steam ships. I wish there was T-21 money for ships!

You think main line steam locomotives are rare. Try steam ships. How many coal fired steamers operate on salt water on the East Coast? ONE!
There are a few more oil burners.
But I digress!

Ted miles

ted_miles@nps.gov

Mr. Pitts hit the nail on the head about the Paulsen Spence scenario. I've never heard the situation summed up better.

One persisting legend is that Spence did leave $400,000 in his will to construct a museum building in Baton Rouge to house all his engines, but because he did not sign his will on every page, it was declared invalid. Anyone ever hear this one?

Tim (eleven miles south of the Louisiana Eastern)
> I wouldn't want to go too far in disputing
> Wilbur, especially since he can't defend
> himself, but there some holes in that story.

> First, Spence didn't get along very well
> with any of his relatives. They viewed him
> as crazy, and as wasting the income and
> resources of his businesses on a railroad
> scheme. (the differnce between crazy and
> eccentric is that the eccentric is crazy,
> but has money).

> Second, his locomotives got to the LE via
> the IC, and he hired IC shopmen from McComb,
> MS (site of an IC carshop and locootive
> shop) to do much of his mechanical work.
> Several of his locomotives were purchased
> from the IC, including at least one 4-6-2
> and several 0-6-0's and 0-8-0's.

> Finally, a local mechanical officer does not
> now and did not then have that much autonomy
> and/or authority. If Spence wanted to move
> an engine, was willing and able to pay the
> tarrif rate, and the engine passed
> inspection, it could be moved. He could
> appeal to the ICC if he thought he was being
> mistreated. Not only that, he was an IC
> customer, and they would have been more
> likely to work with him because of that.

> Spence's family knew there was not going to
> be a railroad built; they wanted to get rid
> of the stuff while it still had some value,
> even if it was just scrap value.

> And I don't recall any hue and cry, or any
> real effort by railfans and/or established
> museums at the time, to buy any of the
> engines, parts, tools, etc. Overlooked in
> the discussion of his locomotives are the
> dozens of carloads of parts and supplies he
> also bought. What would boxcar loads of new
> and rebuilt air pumps, injectors, dynamos,
> stokers, tires, packings, lubricators, flues
> and tubes, lubricants, water pumps, Alemite
> guns, and myriad repair parts for all of
> these things be worth today?

> This stuff all went to scrap, too.


http://images.prosperpoint.com/images/11/1551-531.jpg
runner@i-55.com

Spence's wife was stereotypical Southern "Junior Leaguer" type, who didn't like her husband, his trains, his other "extracuricular" activites, and certanly hated how it all looked to "polite society." He had been barely in the ground when an auction was held to get everthing into the hand of the scrap mongers.

Spence died of a heart attack on a station platform while on a moneyraising trip for the L&E.

Dear Dave:
Very briefly (because it is late).
Arthur LaSalle owned a number of steam locomotives over the years. The most significant one was an 1880s' 4-4-0 named "Sabine" (sp?) built for Morgan's Louisiana Railroad. This locomotive was scrapped under mysterious circumstances. Also owned and operated were 2-6-0 "Albert" (now at Cedar Point) and a couple of 0-4-0Ts (which were backdated to appear a good bit older than they were). Arthur bought and sold quite a number of locomotives over the years doing business as: American Railroad Equipment Association. He was a dealer in locomotives, but always tried to find good homes for his favorite, "special engines" (mostly Sugar Plantation/Mill locomotives). To the best of my knowledge, Arthur is still alive and restoring a mansion near Vicksburg.
John E. Thompson (JET) was the heir to a meat packing plant in Chicago. At one time he had a lot of money and spent it on some of the worst locomotives imaginable (trust me, I worked for JET on his collection, and bought one of his locomotives). He decided to start a Winery in Monee, near his farm and dumped a lot of money into that too. Long story made short: all the businesses failed and the locomotives got dumped at the Winery (except for the ones previously sold: L&A #509 to me, R&S #17 to Crab Orchard & Egyptian and CMt. #3 to Richard Hinebaugh (Kettle Moraine). John later died (?) leaving the collection to his son Randy who sold the rest of the collection except for Lee Tidewater Cypress #18 and Coronet Phosphate #9, which are being retained by him in hopes of eventual restoration.

As an aside in re-the Spence collection, Blount was somehow involved in the scrapping of that collection. When I worked at Steamtown, we had a pile of cast bronze front number plates with "Louisiana Eastern" (various road numbers). Also,in the early 70s', the Green Mountain had a box car full of parts from scrapped locomotives including a couple dozen headlights with I.C. and G.M.&O. road numbers from the Spence collection (all gone now).
J. David


jdconrad@snet.net

Thank you. I am trying to track down the final disposition of two of the wooden cars from Hilliard, Fla. which were part of the LaSalle collection. And I have some dim but specific memories of the old Tidewater Cypress engines rusting away in Florida when I was much younger.

Best of luck to everybody who has adopted any of these.

Dave

irondave@bellsouth.net

> Dear Dave:
> Very briefly (because it is late).
> Arthur LaSalle owned a number of steam
> locomotives over the years. The most
> significant one was an 1880s' 4-4-0 named
> "Sabine" (sp?) built for Morgan's
> Louisiana Railroad. This locomotive was
> scrapped under mysterious circumstances.
> Also owned and operated were 2-6-0
> "Albert" (now at Cedar Point) and
> a couple of 0-4-0Ts (which were backdated to
> appear a good bit older than they were).
> Arthur bought and sold quite a number of
> locomotives over the years doing business
> as: American Railroad Equipment Association.
> He was a dealer in locomotives, but always
> tried to find good homes for his favorite,
> "special engines" (mostly Sugar
> Plantation/Mill locomotives). To the best of
> my knowledge, Arthur is still alive and
> restoring a mansion near Vicksburg.
> John E. Thompson (JET) was the heir to a
> meat packing plant in Chicago. At one time
> he had a lot of money and spent it on some
> of the worst locomotives imaginable (trust
> me, I worked for JET on his collection, and
> bought one of his locomotives). He decided
> to start a Winery in Monee, near his farm
> and dumped a lot of money into that too.
> Long story made short: all the businesses
> failed and the locomotives got dumped at the
> Winery (except for the ones previously sold:
> L&A #509 to me, R&S #17 to Crab
> Orchard & Egyptian and CMt. #3 to
> Richard Hinebaugh (Kettle Moraine). John
> later died (?) leaving the collection to his
> son Randy who sold the rest of the
> collection except for Lee Tidewater Cypress
> #18 and Coronet Phosphate #9, which are
> being retained by him in hopes of eventual
> restoration.

J. David - I believe that the sons name is Brian Thompson, not Randy. I do not know that John Thompson has passed away or not. I do know that the 18 was at least superficially damaged from being located next to the former depots that comprised the Thompson winery when they burned to the ground a while back.

Les

> As an aside in re-the Spence collection,
> Blount was somehow involved in the scrapping
> of that collection. When I worked at
> Steamtown, we had a pile of cast bronze
> front number plates with "Louisiana
> Eastern" (various road numbers).
> Also,in the early 70s', the Green Mountain
> had a box car full of parts from scrapped
> locomotives including a couple dozen
> headlights with I.C. and G.M.&O. road
> numbers from the Spence collection (all gone
> now).
> J. David


midlandblb@cs.com

At one time there was a tugboat in a children's book something like the little engine that could. Anthtopomrphized. Little guy doing a big job. The sort of thing kids often like. I think his name might even have been "Thomas the Tugboat" though I can no longer recall, and the book is undoubtedly burried in some familial vault if it hasn't been given to someone else's kids. (Mom saved a surprising number of kids books, as she taought. I'll have to ask her if she recalls the particular book.)

So anyway, there was one out there. Somebody has to recreate it and make a spinoff TV show, as there seems to be a shortage of parents reading to young children these days.

Sincerely,
David Ackerman


david_ackerman@yahoo.com