Thinking about the difference between heritage operations in the UK and most of the tourist trains in the USA - what are we trying to accomplish here? "We" as in the greater railway preservation group.

In the UK - many operations are trying to preserve and/or recreate a specific era and the full experience of that era. Multiple trains operating with historic consists, stations and platforms and signaling all coming together to recreate the past.

Here in the states - we often end up with a "tourist train ride" where a tour guide tells jokes and history, often shouting louder and louder to a point where you can't hear the locomotive, clickety clack, etc. Is that what we want? Is that preservation?

Certainly, there are some great examples here in the USA as well - Illinois Railway Museum comes to mind as being the closest to what I've seen in the UK.

I just wonder if we somehow missed the point - and can we correct course?

East Broad Top and the Nevada Northern would count towards heritage railroads, the latter would have to be on a technicality as opposed to the former

why do you say "on a technicality"?

We have every manner of 'heritage' depending on how you interpret it, from the best to the least.

But the bottom line remains survival, you can't live on museum admissions, even a decent heritage railroad usually needs some professional staff, and cash flow is cash flow, so that's the conflict.

I'd say that 75% of everybody (if not higher) is surviving on special events, Thomas, Polar (and-or Christmas) that have little to do with 'heritage' but keep things moving.

The bigger question is how the UK operations successfully manage their capital and operational funding.

State or national supported operations are great, until the day politics change.

I really can't think of any operation in the USA that is an equivalent of the UK heritage operations like Bluebell, Severn Valley, Great Central, etc.

There are, of course, some truly fantastic operations in the USA that probably don't have a UK equivalent either.

Many operations in the UK also have Thomas, Christmas, and other special events. I'm certainly not saying we shouldn't have those events as they can bring in lots of attention and new customers. I do think the best possible scenario is when those events can happen and align with the historical nature of the operation - Strasburg's Christmas Tree train is a great example of this. But that's another thought.

My point is more about the overall mission, plan, and vibe of an operation.

Special events are one thing, day to day operations being sold as history and heritage are another. Sometimes you need to let standards slide to pay the bills.

"Heritage Railroad" seems to be a word that has taken off in the US in the past decade or so, borrowed from the UK. Before that we were tourist trains, steam trains, old trains, etc.

In my mind, a good heritage road works to tell some sort of story with their pieces, to either demonstrate what passenger travel was like X years ago, or what freight trains looked like X years ago. However, it doesn't just stop there. The crew should be properly attired, stations and public facilities are suitably "dressed" for the era. There is an element of living history, if you will.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I9eY_eoXs3g

After having ridden many of the notable Heritage Railways in the UK (Severn Valley, North Yorkshire Moors, Great Central, Mid Hants) and a number of Western US (Western Railway Museum, Niles, Mount Rainier, Northwest RR Museum, Cal Western), the US lines do not compare in quality of a historical attraction. Don't get me wrong, these are all fine operations.

Of those, I enjoyed Western Railway Museum the most, even though I am not a big Interurban fan. Their cars are very well restored, their track is nice, and the return leg I think we were pushing upwards of 25-30 mph, so it felt like we were actually moving at a decent clip and not plodding along at 10mph.

Of all of these US roads, I found the crew etiquette to be the most distracting. Mismatched uniforms, radio mics clipped onto vests, radio volume turned up too high inside cars, using radios to communicate every little piece of information to a person a car away, assorted railroad pins and doo dads, mountain man beards, etc. Did I mention radios? Get rid of the speaker mic and stick the radio on your belt, under your coat. You're running a 3 car train at 10 mph, not flat switching a 100 car freight train. A little bit of dress up and play acting would go a long way.

Finally, when your open cars and snack cars are in better condition than the historic or heritage equipment in your fleet, is that part of a good heritage road?

On the opposite end, an industrial critter pulling a gondola and LIRR commuter in PA is not heritage in my view, as it does not attempt to tell a story of how any of this equipment operated, or how things were. Might be very good at showing Joe Public what it was like to be a piece of scrap metal in a Gondola. Yes, many railroads started out like this, but decades later, many have failed to move beyond this initial step. Fine and good for people that want to play trains or simply ride a train, but a true "heritage railroad"? Not to me. As I am wont to say, old =/= historic.

These are the ramblings of an un-fun stickler, so take that for what you will.

As an aside, there was a reality show made on the NYMR pre-pandemic called Yorkshire Steam Railway. It gives a good (if slightly dramatic) look at running a large UK steam road. What caught me was in the summer months, they run up to 17 trains a day, with a couple on the National Network to Whitby. It is available on youtube.

Heritage Railroad

Trains operating have Historical Significance to the area it ran on with as Original Equipment as Possible. Exceptions to this would be buying or Building of New Rolling Stock to save Historic Equipment.

My Example: East Broad Top Railroad

Tourist Railroad:

Trains operating over a length of track, Foreign to the Area. Built purely for Tourism or Theme Park. Including a Mix-Match of different Equipment from different roads and Era's

My Example: Tweetsie or Dollywood

I only used Narrow Guage as my examples

the Standard Gauge routes are more Difficult to Define

Example: The Western Maryland Scenic.
- Yes, it is Original WM Trackage (mostly)
- No, it is Using C&O 1309, which would have never been in cumberland or Frostburg during normal operations. 734 was orginally on the LS&I

Example: The Everett Railroad
- Started as Tourist and Freight in Everett PA
- No Longer in Everett, PA
- Operates B&H 11 and Owns H&BT 38 (partial Parent Company "KINDA")

The Bigger Question is where would Strasburg Fall in this, Is it Heritage or is it Tourist?

it is a Valid Discussion with no correct way to Diagnose what this is or what it should be. No Way to Correctly Define it with out Pissing off everyone in one fashion or another.

thanks

"The Bigger Question is where would Strasburg Fall in this, Is it Heritage or is it Tourist?"

For my definition in my original post... Strasburg is much closer to the UK Heritage Railroads than most operations in the USA.

From Wikipedia -
"A heritage railway or heritage railroad (U.S. usage) is a railway operated as living history to re-create or preserve railway scenes of the past. Heritage railways are often old railway lines preserved in a state depicting a period (or periods) in the history of rail transport."

That's kind of the definition I'm using. The history of the equipment in relation to the right of way is not part of the definition for this topic. If that is the definition - I believe Ely wins hands down for the USA correct?

What is Strasburg doing that nobody else is? It's a wonderful place with immaculate equipment, no argument there. But what makes it more "heritage" than say East Broad Top which has the shops complex etc? The station isn't original to the operation.

Are you considering it as a "package" with the Pennsylvania Railroad Museum? In that case, I can see where it does have some merit.

Partly I'm thinking of the Strasburg of old with 2 train operations and a few more historic touches. Being able to get on and off the train at Groff's Grove also adds a nice touch that reminds me of the UK Heritage lines with multiple stations etc.

Also the equipment all matches and feels like it could be actual operating equipment - that's not 100% unique to Strasburg of course but many operations have a strange mis-match that ruins any illusion of an actual railway operation.

But that's not to say Strasburg is the only one that gets close to a Heritage operation, and of course the touristy spiel on the PA takes away from it so it's certainly not a perfect example.

[quote="seth4404"]

Of all of these US roads, I found the crew etiquette to be the most distracting. Mismatched uniforms, radio mics clipped onto vests, radio volume turned up too high inside cars, using radios to communicate every little piece of information to a person a car away, assorted railroad pins and doo dads, mountain man beards, etc. Did I mention radios? Get rid of the speaker mic and stick the radio on your belt, under your coat. You're running a 3 car train at 10 mph, not flat switching a 100 car freight train. A little bit of dress up and play acting would go a long way.


I for one can concur on uniforms at most Heritage/Tourist Railroads. They tend to fall flat on a standard, I see no reason where a themed uniform of a particular fallen flag would be appropriate in events but on many days most have some sort of version of whatever they find at Kohls. Or even worse Fire Department or Police dress uniforms! Let’s not forget deodorant too.

As someone who worked as a uniformed conductor professionally, and now wears a beard, we had standards for how long the beard or hair could be. That’s absent at many places in the Heritage Industry. I concur on the radio nonsense as well. I kinda wish there was a uniform policy adopted across the industry, if anything maybe it would help keep some standards alive and maybe a few small business’ afloat.

End Rant,

Uniform and Grooming, Connecticut.

What I like about the examples given so far - is that it's not about the money - it's about the overall mission and "vibe" of the operation.

Another reason Strasburg comes to mind as a good example - they have chosen to always have a set standard of rolling stock. They don't use bi-level commuter coaches or RDC's for the Thomas Trains or when things get busy - they have decided the era and style of rolling stock that fits the operation.

I think its human nature to try to cleanly categorize things.

But reality is more a gray area. They are all unique in their own way, I don't see what it matters how it nicely falls into one category or another.
What about white pass, D&S, CTS, TVRM, GSMR, the list goes on and on.
I'd say all represent their own unique take on it.

Some are more "scenic based" too like conway or gsmr, D&S, WP etc.
What about UK rr's like the ffestioniog/ Welsh highland? Seems that's a bit of a mixed bag.

Totally agree - there are cultural reasons I think the USA operations lean towards tourist operations as well. Not necessarily a bad thing. Just something to observe and discuss.